Warrior Moms: Surviving Child Loss
A club no one wants to be in because the initiation is too big of a sacrifice: the loss of a child. Unthinkable. Unimaginable. Warrior Moms is local group in north Atlanta filled with strong, courageous, funny, and fiercely loving women who are surviving and thriving amidst horrific grief.
This podcast features Amy Durham and Michele Davis, two of the Warrior Moms, who will guide listeners through their grief journey. Every fourth or fifth episode will showcase another Warrior Mom, the trauma they endured, stories about their beloved child, and tips on how they get out of bed every day.
Each and every Warrior Moms' story is different, the children and the loss is different, but one thing they share is the decision to live. They have figured out how to live life putting one foot in the past and the other moving forward. Yes, it's beyond awful. Yes, it's hard. Yes, it's worth it. And yes, they say, you can survive child loss AND thrive.
Warrior Moms: Surviving Child Loss
Breaking Through: How Dr. Dhaval Desai Faced COVID-19 and Grief
Dr. Desai joins Warrior Moms Amy Durham and Michele Davis to share a raw, powerful account of what happens when professional and personal crises collide. As a hospital director during COVID-19 and a father to a newborn born just two weeks before the nation shut down, Dr. Desai, author of Burning Out on the Covid Front Lines: A Doctor's Memoir of Fatherhood, Race, and Perseverance in the Pandemic, speaks honestly and will connect deeply with anyone who has felt pulled between competing responsibilities during times of trauma.
The conversation takes us through Dr. Desai's gradual recognition of his own burnout—the moment he realized something was wrong when he couldn't find joy in teaching his daughter to ride a bike without training wheels. "There was no joy," he shares candidly, describing how the adrenaline that carried healthcare workers through the first COVID surge eventually gave way to profound emotional and physical exhaustion.
What makes this episode particularly moving is Dr. Desai's willingness to discuss his mental health journey without filters. He describes the pivotal moment when his primary care physician confronted him: "You're struggling... when are we going to do something about it chemically?" This led to medication, therapy with someone he "couldn't outsmart," and a gradual path toward healing that continues today. His perspective on physician burnout gains additional impact through his discussion of Dr. Lorna Breen, an emergency physician who died by suicide during the pandemic—one of approximately 400 physicians who take their lives annually.
The conversation takes another profound turn as Dr. Desai discusses navigating the one-year anniversary of his father's death. With remarkable insight, he and the Warrior Moms hosts explore grief's physical manifestations, the challenges of intentionally creating space for mourning, and how to keep loved ones present through ongoing conversations and memories. His reflections on finding hope not as blind optimism but as meaningful connection within community offer wisdom for anyone navigating loss.
Whether you're a healthcare worker still processing pandemic trauma, a parent balancing professional demands with family needs, or someone walking through grief, this episode offers validation, wisdom, and a reminder that vulnerability—especially men's vulnerability—can be our greatest strength. Listen, share, and join the conversation about breaking silence around mental health struggles.
"Dream Bird" by Jonny Easton
Thank you for listening to Warrior Moms podcast. It is an honor to share about our beloved children gone too soon, and we hope by telling of our loss, it may help someone in their grief journey. Please note that we are not medical professionals and encourage those listening to seek help from mental health professionals.
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Website: https://www.warriormoms.me/
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With love,
Warrior Moms Amy & Michele
Hi, welcome to Warrior Moms. I am Amy Durham.
Speaker 2:And I am Michelle Davis. We are so grateful that you are here and we have a wonderful guest today, the Director of Hospital Medicine at St Joseph's Emory Hospital here in Atlanta, and we're so just pleased and just so grateful that you wanted to join us, so welcome.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Michelle and Amy. I'm really happy to be here and, first and foremost, I applaud you for this podcast, your efforts, vulnerability. It's just a really timely and very important topic all of this, and I'm privileged to be here with y'all.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for being here. Yes, so I didn't say your name. So this is Dr Desai. I've introduced you know, the main thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what started this conversation was that we have Dr Tsai is a fellow author and he came out with a book called Burning Out on the COVID Front Lines, a doctor's memoir of fatherhood, race and perseverance in the pandemic. And of course, with any trauma and just complicated issue dealing with loss and life, it's going to bring up all sorts of emotions and then just the unknown of COVID, and so, of course, with the trauma of losing a child, we feel those similar feelings and so we wanted to have this conversation just to really talk about Dr Desai's experience with that really life-changing pandemic, of course, and leading a team through that. But then really more, what's important to Amy and I is just that personal experience, both in the workplace and then at home. And then how did that affect you personally and both as a doctor and then just as a human, how he's handled that grief. So let's start what I wanted to ask.
Speaker 2:I think first was because I know you are a family man first and foremost. You love your work. But that's where you started in the book was talking about a newborn and your wife and just so proud of your family. And so how does those demands of being a father and a husband and then you had the pandemic, pandemic breakout and just those intense emotions take the readers through just those beginning chapters that you talked about in that unknown?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the two weeks before the country shut down is when my son was born, february 23, 2020. As with any new life, any newborn, any new addition to the family, it's pure exhilaration. We have a four year age gap between my daughter and my son, so we had kind of forgotten what newborn life really felt like, even though my wife and I are both physicians. So that was a rude awakening, those sleepless nights and all of that that comes with it. But you know, as I got jolted back into hospital life, it was really just very much a rude awakening, and it wasn't so much that I was going back to work, I was going back to work in a whole different world. And when we talk about grieving, you know grief can be so much. We're losing people, we're losing experiences. But the hindsight's clear that my wife was grieving, that her maternity leave was not going to be what it would have been before Our pre-K. Our daughter, who's in, you know, pre-k, whatever you want to call it was now homebound. She was taking care of two kids. Homebound. She was taking care of two kids.
Speaker 3:For me, I was jolted back into the hospital where I wanted to be at home to make sure they're okay at home. But also I wanted to be in the hospital. I could never turn off between the two and there were times, truthfully, where I know I wasn't fully checked in as a dad, as I should be at home, because I was so focused on impending doom or the doom that was going on and I didn't only know often what I was bringing home, but at the same time, there was a lot of adrenaline that got us through that first surge. But it wasn't until that summer of 2020 when I could feel my adrenaline waning and we knew COVID was here to stay, and little did we know we were going to have four subsequent very big surges and nothing was over by any means.
Speaker 3:But I started to feel emotionally drained, mentally drained, and I tell this anecdote in the book also one day in the early summer, all my daughter wanted to do was to learn how to ride her bike, and that was daddy's thing to do with her, and I wanted to be. She wanted me to come home and just take her outside, and that's the first thing she wanted to do. I was exhausted, I was drained and I was really internally pushing myself just to get through the day. I could feel something wasn't right. And when I was outside with her I had to fake getting through her riding her first pedal without training wheels, because all I wanted to do was go in and lay on the couch and at that point I knew something was off. And you know, fast forward that in multiple arguments at home, tense times at home, no one was truly happy and relaxed, and not that you should be when you have two little kids.
Speaker 1:There was no joy.
Speaker 3:No, there really was no joy. Thank you for saying that there was no joy. How can we sugarcoat any of that? There was no joy and we were all robbed of that, all of us in different ways. So a roundabout way to get back to the question is that's how it all started for me and that's how my mental health journey, everything sort of came to fruition that summer and led me to my own personal journey to get help and start to get better.
Speaker 2:That was one of the it was kind of near the area that you were talking about. That really struck me where you said self-care in any case requires some attention, which can be difficult for physicians and their teams in a pandemic, particularly those on the frontline. And then you continued to have this conversation with a colleague of yours who asked you what you know, what are you doing for relaxation? And of course I'm sure you know the response, which was to go grocery shopping and to go to Costco alone.
Speaker 3:I mean, I love Costco. I really do. No one can ever take my Costco away from me. But yeah, that's what I was doing. I was busted, I did not do anything. I was not doing anything, I was too busy. I kind of thrive in that caregiver role, if y'all can relate to that, like you like caring for people You're a teacher, michelle you like those relationships, you like taking care of people, and doctors are very similar. In being a leader, I like taking care of my team no-transcript doctor that took her life and that that really struck you.
Speaker 3:Dr Lorna Breen passed from suicide in the spring of 2020. And reading her story from New York City in the New York Times in summer of 2020, I mean, michelle and Amy, I kid you, not reading every paragraph I had a visceral reaction and I was clenching up saying this could be any one of us, any one of us. All she wanted to do is fix things. She was trying to fix the unfixable. She was trying to do a good job. Nothing mattered, everything was against her and she tried to fight through her mental health challenges. All of that came through. She took time off, but she did not win that battle.
Speaker 3:And reading that story and fast forward where I'm at now, all my author proceeds from the book are going to that foundation, the Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation, and I'm very aligned as an ambassador. In fact, tomorrow I'm going for the day to DC. It's National Healthcare Worker Wellbeing Day and that foundation and another organization are putting on a whole day long symposium. So that should be fun and very informative and building a community. But yeah, you know, 400 physicians a year die by suicide, so let's imagine the grief with that. Oh my.
Speaker 3:God I know three personally. Can you imagine that?
Speaker 1:Do you know any of them?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, amy, yes, and it's always people you would not think are struggling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah. Well, we started that, you know before you got on the call. Amy, we're sitting here visiting and talking, and it was just, you know, intuitive Amy and I have gotten to know each other so well and she just stopped and was like Well, how are you, michelle? You know that, just that, that being seen, I guess, is just so important, and I think you talked about that with your colleague that had recognized there's something different and we need to do something about that. So what did you do?
Speaker 3:Good question. So ultimately, you know, I had kind of this epiphany with my wife saying you know, it's time I think I need, I need some, I need extra, I need something, I need something, whether it's medication, therapy, all of the above. I need something. And it was not easy for me to say that out loud, as you can imagine, it's never is. My wife was like okay, good, let's do it. It was simple, it was no resistance. I walked into my primary care physician and I called it a routine follow-up or something. And the first thing he asked me was so how are you doing? And I said I'm okay. He's like you're struggling. I said yes, he's like okay, when are we going to do something about it chemically? It's time. And we went back and forth. I'm like how'd you know? And he said I see you walking around the hospital we work in the same healthcare system and he says you look miserable, you look exhausted, you look defeated and that's no way to live and we need to do something. And I felt much lighter after leaving that doctor's appointment and I talk about it in the book. I've been through medication changes and I'm at a good place now. That itself is a journey in itself.
Speaker 3:I didn't initially add on therapy. I did a year later. Truth be told, I had seen one of those employee assistance programs, what we all have in our respective employers throughout the years, intermittently for anger management. Like you know, sometimes you get home, you don't have enough left to give and you're just kind of you know frustrated, and it's not a good combination, as we all know. So I never felt that those therapists could have done, did enough and went deep enough. For me and this is going to be a saying I don't know if you've heard this before, but it's very important for people that are emotionally intelligent, which obviously you are and I'm sure your listeners are too is that you have to find a therapist that you cannot outsmart.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, yes, yes, you're so right.
Speaker 2:Wow, that is really good.
Speaker 3:That's powerful right. Yes, that is so right.
Speaker 2:Wow, that is really right. That's powerful, right, yes, that is so powerful.
Speaker 3:And I didn't make that up. I heard it at one of those wellness conferences or whatever I've been to and I've never let go of that. But the truth is I'm pretty savvy. I know how to pivot a conversation on that and I think most of us do right. But I want a therapist that's going to call me out on my stuff and make me realize, like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That argument you had with your wife, you're not going to get a there there, pat, pat, you're going to be like the way you responded. You could have done this. That's what I need, that's what we all need. So I finally found the right match. So what I'm getting at is it's okay to change therapists, because you really have to find the right match that's going to be able to go deep, handle it, bring you back, do it all. Not an easy job.
Speaker 2:No sure. Well, and you and I had talked about that, this is a really heavy week for you because, this is the one year anniversary of your dad's passing and I'm so sorry. I know you know they talk about the loss of a parent is losing a piece of our past, and I know those that the missing is just as Amy and I know it's so hard. How did you know the loss of your dad, compounded with those you know, several years of trauma of COVID and your own mental anguish? How's that compounded?
Speaker 3:He was my number one supporter and he lived locally. He was cared for in our hospital in a system I work for. We talked every day. He adored my kids and when I say adored, I mean they could do no wrong in his eyes, just the pure, pure love that he had for them. But we knew he was declining. But he was always compensated.
Speaker 3:But at four weeks of anguish he went through after having a fall. He was only 74. And it was a privilege and honor to be on the sidelines as a physician and son here, navigating, moving mountains, making things happen, advocating for him. But it was a lot of. It was kind of the same emotions where you go through this adrenaline. You're in the weeds of it, you do it and you know what's coming. But and then when you know it's coming, you're like, okay, you know what this has to end.
Speaker 3:I knew as a physician his suffering had to end. But then the emotions as a son is like, wait, what? What am I, I doing? What are we doing? But I saw him suffer and I knew he had lost what he had, what he was, in many ways. And the best part for what it's worth is two days before he passed. He rallied and he said I'm done, this is what I want. I want hospice. You guys got to listen to me. And he even pulled me aside and said don't let anybody change my plan. This is what to me. And he even pulled me aside and said don't let anybody change my plan.
Speaker 3:This is what I want, and he said that because he knew my brother, who's also a physician, would be a little bit more emotional. Not that I'm not emotional, but there's always, you know, families going through this.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm that person in my family.
Speaker 3:I always feel like there's always somebody that wants not ready right, and that's just the way it is not ready, right, and that's just the way it is.
Speaker 1:So he, really, like my husband's always told everyone amy is not in charge of my plug, she won't do it, she will not respect my wishes, and he's right.
Speaker 3:It's terrible, right it's hard, but you know he gave us the biggest gift because he made that decision yes thank you and I knew at the time he was giving us a gift, but I didn't realize it till now and I kind of, I guess, turn it back to. I would love to hear from y'all in this discussion is there's times when this week and going into this week, I'm like okay, I'm okay, I think I got this. And then there's times I'm like looking at pictures or something or old text messages and it's like wait what? And then there's a middle ground where I'm like, okay, I'm feeling okay, but I kind of feel iffy, but I can get through it, but what am I supposed to be feeling and which feelings should I hold? Like, how should I act on it? You know, does that make sense what I'm asking?
Speaker 1:and this is where my motto comes in Feel the feels. If you're sad, you're sad. If you're happy, you're happy. Feel those moments. You know, I know there's times that you can't actually. You know you're in the middle of something and you can't actually feel everything. But try, you know, if you're having a bad day, just, or a sad day, just be sad. Just embrace that moment and just feel it, because if you push it down and push it down and push it down, that's when it's going to come out even bigger. If you're happy, it's okay to be happy. Have a happy day, enjoy, laugh, smile, enjoy your kids running around and you know sometimes that sadness pops in out of that but just allow yourself to, in that moment, acknowledge the feeling and continue to feel it. To me, that's the healthiest way to be. Yeah, I mean, you have to be intentional about it. You just have to be intentional about taking that time and acknowledging I mean, I've intentionally, and that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Amy. I've intentionally placed myself on a very busy work schedule Thursday and Friday. Thursday is the day and part of me feels a little selfish for doing that. But I know why I'm doing that because I don't want to be in the gutter all day. Truthfully, and I'm the type, if I'm idle on a day like that, I could easily be in the gutter, which I like to call, and frankly, I don't think that would be wise for me. Is that selfish?
Speaker 2:No, I'm exactly the same way.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's Michelle. Yeah, she's busy, busy, busy, go, go, go. I, on the other hand, I'm like don't make me do anything, don't plan anything, just let me embrace that moment. Let it come, let me feel it, let me embrace it and I'll decide what I do at that time.
Speaker 3:You know just, we're just so different in that aspect, which is great, but I want to savor the moment too. It's a weird contradiction, I don't know how to explain it.
Speaker 2:What I try to do is just be intentional about the moments where I am going to break down. So I literally carve a space in my day leading up to those big moments. And what Amy and I have figured out is a lot of times there's just so much anticipation for those anniversary days and then the anniversary days kind of you end up being okay because you've done so much, you know you have so much anxiety and work, and then it's the after days that are really hard, because you know um you're not in the mix of doing something to get ready and all of a sudden it's over and so your brain and your heart kind of relaxes a bit.
Speaker 3:But I that's a good point. The after days it's like a balloon pop. It's over and it's like what now?
Speaker 2:what I'm almost. What do I do?
Speaker 3:after the one year mark. Now, like am I supposed to be okay? And they say it takes a full year to grieve and then it gets easier. You know every, we've all heard that right, we've all heard that right. The four seasons, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:But then it's like what do you do after that? Yeah, and truthfully, every single one of us grief moms in this group. It's really year two and I hate to even say that.
Speaker 3:Please say it. No, we need to embrace this.
Speaker 2:But year two is honestly.
Speaker 2:I mean, of course, year one is hard in so many ways, but year two you come out of this cloud and that's when the missing is really, really heavy and, like you said, you're seeing pictures, you're able to go to those things which maybe that first year you didn't as much and people aren't asking about it like they did that first year. And so there's this loneliness, this space of needing somebody to ask about it, and then all of that. But I call it just putting myself in deep grief, where I carve out time once a day and I still do that today where I intentionally am looking at pictures of Carter or I write about it or I'll listen to music that's intentionally going to connect me to him and just my emotions about it. And that sense, because I'm like you where I have to be busy, busy, busy. But that gives me sort of this. I am somewhat in control of it because I know when I'm going to do it. Here's my time, this is where I give myself that space to then save for it. It's a lie.
Speaker 1:That year mark. It changes nothing except for the fact it's another day on the calendar, but it's not like on day, one year, one day, you're magically better, it's not Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Yeah, david Kessler. Do y'all know that name, david Kessler, with grief? Have y'all heard him speak? I'm sidetracking, but I heard him speak in was it January, I don't know? Sometime recently through St Joseph's Anyways, they had this speaker series and one quote about grief and I went to the session on losing a parent and he said you enter in the middle of somebody's movie and they leave in the middle of your movie and you're never going to have enough time.
Speaker 2:That just hits hard, doesn't it? It really does, sorry, no, I mean it's good, but it doesn't solve anything.
Speaker 3:It just kind of puts things in perspective. Like this is it.
Speaker 2:Like, oh great, now what? I guess one of the things that I wanted to ask you about in this. You have this hard week. You're thinking about it, you made a day on Thursday. That's really busy. What's that doing to you physically? What we've noticed is just that physicality of grief. Physicality of grief. We have really felt that. Certainly we have not heard anyone talk to us, and books that we read about our trauma didn't talk about that.
Speaker 3:So that's not talked about much. You think Then is that an untapped area? The physicality of grief? That's a really good way of putting it, and no one's ever brought that up to me, and I'm so glad you are. The first thing I think about from a physicality and physical health standpoint is my sleep. Sleep is forever. I'm also at baseline. I have sleep. I'm not the best sleeper. I take melatonin. I've done sleep aids before. I don't do those anymore. I took ashwagandha as a supplement but want to say and I told my wife this too the last year the dreams are so vivid. He's in my dreams constantly, good and bad. I know, I guess, I guess, I know I am. You're right. I can't discount that. But sometimes, believe it or not, I say can the dreams stop for a night or two, because it's exhausting.
Speaker 2:Well, and you wake up and it's a lot. It's just a lot. And how do you go? Oh, I got to go brush my teeth.
Speaker 3:I know Totally. And then the whole sleep science and all I question am I getting quality rest? Is my brain really resting or is this the way my brain is processing this? And I wish I had the answer to that, because I don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and that is um, that's something. And I think with child loss, we, amy and I, talk about this a lot. Just, I mean, we are exhausted most days.
Speaker 3:Really.
Speaker 2:And I walk around and you're happy and cheerful and you know you have a wonderful time on a lot of levels. But it's just right underneath. I mean, the sorrow is just right there and you're constantly battling it, like your brain is just you know, because you're just thinking about it nonstop. Even though you're constantly battling it, like your brain is just you know, because you're just thinking about it nonstop, even though you're not trying to Um so that takes extra energy because so when you come home in the evening you're exhausted, like you're physically drained, right yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think you know staying busy for sure helps me, but then carving that space to just find time to be with your dad when you're awake, you know like having that, you know being able to just.
Speaker 3:You know what my therapist told me to do, and maybe y'all do this and y'all can if you're comfortable sharing. But he said journal, before you go to bed, something about your dad, um, and see if that helps displace the dreams a bit. And I truth be told, I'm not compliant with that advice. Every night I just can't, we all. You know it's hard sometimes, um, but I guess a few nights I did do it. Maybe it made a difference. And I'm not trying to say the dreams are bad, but sometimes it's just the um. It's really hard the next morning to wake up and we're saying well, how'd you sleep, how was your night? You know, I'm just like vivid dreams and I sound like a broken record and I don't want to keep saying the same thing every morning and it's kind of isolating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, maybe it's. Maybe the journal needs to be the day after, because maybe that is. That is what are you seeing in what's your dad showing you which would be kind of an interesting journey to if your dad was your biggest fan and cheerleader that maybe these images are trying to teach you something.
Speaker 1:Right after Alec passed we started the Alec Journal and I had one and my daughter Layla had one, and anytime we wanted to talk to him we would write to him in this journal and sometimes Layla would draw pictures of her and Alec or whatever I mean because she was what seven? So, like I said, she was still in the picture drawing phase and writing phase, but it did help get it out of my head. You know, sometimes those thoughts and what you want to say is in your head and then you create this conversation and it just gets stuck in there. It made me crazy a little bit, so just getting it out on paper and it's almost like he could read it, but it was like me talking to him and sometimes I could hear his responses. But anyway, yeah, that Alec journal really, really helped both Layla and I through a lot of different times.
Speaker 2:I wonder if you did that, even with your kids, of writing to your dad. Um, that, I know that's, that's a way that I also forced myself to be with Carter is in just everyday conversations. I'm I'm really intentional less likely anymore because it's so now part of my conversation, but oh yeah, carter used to do da da, da, da, um and yeah, um, and you know so I love that, amy, that journal and doing that with your daughter.
Speaker 2:I just think that is so beautiful and I'm sure it was so hard at first and I bet you shared a lot of tears, yeah.
Speaker 3:We get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, one of the things that greta said that just reminds me, you know, if if you were kind of talking about your dad with your kids is. I remember I was taking Greta to school Amy, you've heard this, but, and you know I was crying it was probably two weeks into, after we had lost Carter and I wasn't back at school yet. But Greta was back at school and I'm dropping her off, and the first thing she asked was well, mom, I'm going to school. When are you going to go back to school, you know, and I thought, well, yeah, here's this little eight-year-old and she's facing the day. And so I thought, yep, okay, that goes on my to-do list. And then she said mom, you're so lucky. And I said why is?
Speaker 1:that she said well, you had Carter for 17 years.
Speaker 2:I only had him for eight and I think that, like that journal, amy, I bet you you got to see, you know Alec through Layla's eyes and things that you know she would say that that could be kind of interesting to do. I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll go back and look at those two over time, or is that kind of a what's that? What's the right recipe on that? I guess it's everyone's their own person on that. I don't know either. I don't you know. When I have gone back and looked at some of my previous journal entries whatever they are I'm like, oh, I said that, really, those are my thoughts. It's like, oh, I don't know if I want to, or it's like that was dark. Let's not read that today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that that was dark. Let's not read that today. Well, and one of the things that you talked about in your book of you know, having to gain, you know, both this mental resilience and emotional resilience, and just to persevere through the pandemic, and then, of course, with the loss of your dad. How has those two things really challenged your idea of what is perseverance, and how do we, as humans, actually make ourselves persevere? What is that?
Speaker 3:That's a really good question and I don't know that I have the right answer question and I don't know that I have the right answer For me. You know, from a COVID standpoint and all, I think I just had to look at what mattered to me and that was family and at the time and still is obviously professional career and sustaining that. And, as my therapist tells me, how can we keep you on the best track that you want to be or this? You know we're all these beautiful, beautiful people that we are and I'm deviating from that through these, whatever's going on, how do I get myself back on that track and be this person who I want to be? That's what you know through COVID and all you know, through my dad and that journey and persevering, I think I'm still figuring it out. You know it's interesting.
Speaker 3:My years before my dad passed, my wife and I were talking and you know she's a very strong person and she said you know if and when, more so when our parents pass we were not gonna. We can't completely break down to a point where we're not functional. And I said no, no, no, and I think she said that looking after me because she knows I'm probably more fragile in many ways? No, and I think she said that looking after me, because she knows I'm probably more fragile in many ways, as strong as I am more fragile. So in many ways, you know, I chose to march forward and you know the only other way is including him in our day-to-day conversations, not avoiding that he's not here, you know.
Speaker 3:Including him with my daughter when it's happening, or my son. You know the feelings coming in talking about him, even my now five year old. The other night he was saying Well, I want to go. I know he's dead, but I want to go visit him and I want to take a plane or a bus and car. And what do you want to do when you visit him? I just want to give him a big hug and I was like you know, so they get it in their own way.
Speaker 3:So I'm hopeful we can keep that conversation going. But honestly, Michelle, that's the only way I've known how to persevere is include him and not make him forgotten. And that's 360 days in. That's where I'm at right now, I guess 160 days in.
Speaker 2:That's where I'm at right now, I guess. Good, yes, how has you know? You have a chapter about community and solidarity and you really helped your team come together and it really sounded like they rallied around you as a leader as well, and so, thinking about what you learned about community and solidarity through the pandemic, what have you learned about that in this real personal loss with your father?
Speaker 3:team, a camaraderie, you know, and I always say, amy, I'm sorry I don't know if your your career, background and profession, but I know Michelle is a teacher. But teachers and healthcare workers on the frontline are very parallel in what they experience doing what they do. But you know, having my group, having that group that's carrying you through, we may experience professional differences, which we will and we always do but at the end of the day we have each other's back and I think I'm proud to say I've set that tone from the beginning that we are still humans and we're going to always focus on family first and what our personal needs are. When I see somebody not doing that or somebody sees me doing that, it's going to be no.
Speaker 3:And when I was going through it, they're like stop, you're not doing this, we're going to do this, you're not doing this, we're going to do this, you're going to go away right now and take care of yourself. And it took me a week or two to get into that zone and then I realized you know what, I'm going to allow this and I'm going to be taken care of by them right now. And it's a very good feeling actually knowing you have that and that really kind of grounded me, especially last year, knowing that's the stability that I had during that time that I really needed. So that's that's how I managed that.
Speaker 2:What advice would you give, you know, for all of us, family and friends you know, that have gone through child loss. What do you, what do you say to them in terms of what could they do that helped you, family and friends and co-workers, both in the pandemic and with the loss of your dad? What's some advice you could give listeners in terms of you know, if it's not them that's dealing with the grief, but other friends, and how can they help?
Speaker 3:yeah, um, I think there's a lot of us that like to hide behind the idea of scared to bring it up, scared to bring up that topic, the elephant in the room. And I've been a victim of not doing that in certain situations and also one that I was hoping somebody would bring the elephant, and they're avoiding, trying to make things semi-normal, which makes things worse. So I would say bring up the elephant in the room, and there's ways to do that. You don't want to be so abrupt about it. We're like so how are you doing? Your dad died yesterday. What is it like? Maybe that tact isn't great, but look, I know, look, say look, this is awful, this is the worst thing that could have happened, and we can't sugarcoat any of it and know that I'm here and I'm feeling it with you as much as I can and I'll be with you, whatever you want me to do through this.
Speaker 3:But we're going to get through this and I don't know. I think it's important to bring it up and not ignore it. Honestly, we have to acknowledge it as much as we can, if that's the best advice I think I can give, and I give that to myself. I'm saying this to myself too, because there's times I pretend everything's okay and it's not, and you know, we get in our grind. My wife and I get in our daily grind, and then we're like, oh what? So I know none of us are alone in that.
Speaker 2:We all feel that, right, yes, and then a week later you're like you said this the other week, why did you say that I was feeling this like what? Why didn't you tell me anyways, exactly, exactly. I love in the in your memoir that you ended, you know, really talking about this idea of well and you, you weaved it all the way through of just hope in the recovery. You know, both of you know dealing with all these four waves of the pandemic and loss of life and all of the challenges, of course, of when you talked about those dark days, just I really felt that there was just this internal hope.
Speaker 3:Talk to us about that Hope that everybody hope that there's people that are still going to do the right thing. And hope can mean different things for different people and I've learned that you know, if I'm taking care of a patient who's end of life with cancer, I can still give them hope, and that hope may just be keeping their pain control and getting them home to their bed and not laying in the hospital. That's the hope I'm giving them and that's okay too. So when I say what you know, I think saying hopeful, I think the hopeful part of me is ultimately good health starts in a community, right, whether it's in a community where there's a neighborhood, a church, a school. And when I define good health, it's not only blood pressure, diabetes, all that stuff, it's everything about us. You know the whole psychosocial picture, all of it. And the hope that I get surrounded with is that we can surround ourselves with the right community that's going to help propel all of us keep moving forward. And that community we have, the supply demand of it will change over time. But finding that core community that you know you can depend on and I have that in many different ways and for that I'm blessed and I want to keep having that and I hope I can sustain that, whatever we all do next. But that's the hope. Because, I will say this, healthcare is so complex and both of you know this, and the system's not getting easier, and the things that keep me grounded when the days when I'm feeling the most frustrated with the way our system's failing us, is the community that we have, and that's more on the smaller scale, but that also matters significantly, because none of us can change the bigger system. But the small bites that we can do, we have a little bit more control over. So that's that's kind of my message on that.
Speaker 3:Am I hopeful? Every day? I have my moments where I'm probably not and I'm a little more dismal, but I think it's repositioning what hope really looks like for us, and that's a very intentional practice, right. That takes me, that takes me a lot of time to do as well. So, yeah, it can change too, right. I mean hope can't. Hope doesn't mean everything's going to be positive, and I kind of make fun because sometimes my wife's like let's go for a picnic in the park. I'm like you're so pollyanna, what are we doing, you know? But everything can't be pollyanna, right, like we're just everything's not gonna be, um, so finding hope and something like that. So you know, but everything can't be Pollyanna, right, like we're just everything's not gonna be. So finding hope in something like that, so you know, that's what I can think about these end of life situations, all of that comes up. It's like we really can find some hope in that and it's just reframing our mindset through that.
Speaker 2:I love that. Well, any final thoughts just about deep grief or just your lessons that you learned about? Yeah, the grief journey is.
Speaker 3:You don't know how bad it is until you really go through a significant loss. No matter what you read, what interviews you've seen, movies you've seen, you really don't know what it's like until you've been. And I almost feel like me talking to y'all. It's like you know you should never compare your despair, right? I've heard Robin Roberts on ABC Good Morning America say that we should never compare our despair. But knowing that y'all have lost a child like my grief in my mind should be in like down here, because y'all have gone through a lot worse. But we're all dealing with collective grief differently on that. So I fully admire and respect that you have started this platform and this communication. It's warrior moms and I love that you've included a dad here and I hope you'll continue to include more dads, because there's too many dads at least males that I'm trying to focus on, to talk about their mental health and really open. That can up a little bit, because I've had to embrace that journey too and it can. It is very powerful.
Speaker 2:It is so powerful. Amy had her husband on a couple episodes ago and it was such gosh. It was for me personally. It was so powerful just to even in the way he responded. It was slower, more really thoughtful. He was really thinking so deeply about the questions and answers and I got so much out of it and I feel the same about today.
Speaker 3:Thank you. How do we break that ice? That's a whole other conversation we need to have. But I want to work with y'all. Can we stay connected on this? Because, um, men's mental health, all of that's a huge, huge passion of mine and that embracing that vulnerability and more, I mean we could have had this conversation going on and on. But really, like the work you're doing, um, I hope you're finding it fulfilling, knowing what you're doing, and I have to ask does this help you heal? Partly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a thousand percent.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3:It doesn't feel like a chore doing this. I'm hoping right. This is a passion project.
Speaker 2:What? What I love is that Amy and I have this natural rhythm. We never talked about it but neither of us, just in our personalities, are really stuck on. Oh, it has to be Monday at six and we have to do this many this week and so forth both of us and it works well just for our partnership. And I think in this deep grief that's really given us this space, that okay, when we have a topic and we're really energized and we're feeling good with where we are in our grief, like this week, we're doing three that we're going to space out, but we might have to go sometimes three, four weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I know Right, michelle. I mean like over the holidays gosh, I don't know how many we didn't get very many out at all Like I was having bad days and down in the dumps and then Michelle had other days. It's just, you know, sometimes two grieving women with busy schedules, it's hard to get together. But emotionally sometimes we're just not ready to even talk to anybody. But we do our best, don't we? We do our best.
Speaker 3:Just emotional Ups and downs and I love that you talk about that openly. I love that you mentioned that openly. We have to. Yeah Well, you clearly are doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that just you know breaking those barriers of talking about it, but then also that realization that this is, like you had said earlier, it's hard work, right, and and it's intentional work, Like you do have to face it and and that's heavy and exhausting and, um, I, I would love to keep visiting about this, Like you said we will.
Speaker 3:let's do that, can we? I'm always, I'm not, I'm not inviting myself back, but I'm always ready.
Speaker 2:You can be like, like. Oprah's Dr Oz, you can be our.
Speaker 3:I'm all about it. Did Jeremy tell you to say that? Because I am all about that. Like I'm ready, sign me up, give me the contract, I'm there. Yes, yes yes, yes, yes, yes. I love that. I love that she was the best, wasn't she?
Speaker 2:You worked on your emotional space. You worked on your emotional space.
Speaker 3:It worked on your mental.
Speaker 2:Isn't that awesome. That's so good. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 2:That's why we you know, don you know we did a photo shoot for our book a couple weeks ago and we all had superhero capes on. You know that idea that this is at times grief feels so like. You have to have this superhuman strength, and in the middle of your week I'm just so grateful that you one wanted to talk to us, but that you put your cape on to join us.
Speaker 3:Well, it was meant to be. And you know, michelle, you texted me today saying are you sure you're okay doing this tonight? I'm like, oh, I'm very sure I'm okay. So I needed this as much as anybody. So it was meant to be. And you know, when we were talking about doing this podcast a few weeks ago, I think I may have even subconsciously planned it, saying this is the right week to do this. So, thank you, thank you, thank you. It is. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you just lean in and let it happen.
Speaker 3:That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for joining us, and.
Speaker 3:Amy, as always, thank you, bye bye, bye.
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