Warrior Moms: Surviving Child Loss
A club no one wants to be in because the initiation is too big of a sacrifice: the loss of a child. Unthinkable. Unimaginable. Warrior Moms is local group in north Atlanta filled with strong, courageous, funny, and fiercely loving women who are surviving and thriving amidst horrific grief.
This podcast features Amy Durham and Michele Davis, two of the Warrior Moms, who will guide listeners through their grief journey. Every fourth or fifth episode will showcase another Warrior Mom, the trauma they endured, stories about their beloved child, and tips on how they get out of bed every day.
Each and every Warrior Moms' story is different, the children and the loss is different, but one thing they share is the decision to live. They have figured out how to live life putting one foot in the past and the other moving forward. Yes, it's beyond awful. Yes, it's hard. Yes, it's worth it. And yes, they say, you can survive child loss AND thrive.
Warrior Moms: Surviving Child Loss
Amy and Jeff Durham: Navigating Compounded Grief and Finding Peace: Ep34
Experiencing multiple losses in quick succession, Jeff opens up about the emotional complexity and heart-rending journey of losing both his stepson Alec and his father. We explore with Jeff and Amy the nuances of compounded grief, especially when it's tied to figures of guidance and friendship.
Amy and Jeff discuss the tough balance of supporting those struggling with addiction while setting personal boundaries for self-care. Jeff's experiences with the loss of Alec, their friend and employee Josh, and Alec's roommate Mike to addiction highlight the silent battles many families face. Through these stories, we emphasize the power of resilience and the importance of finding joy amidst sorrow, driven by the belief that our departed loved ones would want us to embrace life fully.
A recurring theme throughout our conversation is the idea of "grace and space"—the practice of allowing open grief expression and the challenge of accepting that not all problems have solutions. The heartfelt remembrance of Jeff's friend, Brett Oglesby, offers a lesson in understanding and supporting those facing similar challenges, enhancing our gratitude for the connections and insights gained through these deeply personal discussions, while trying to navigate compounded grief.
Thank you, Amy and Jeff, for sharing your vulnerable and honest experiences.
As Jeff mentioned, finding patience is key to truly listening. He mentions a hilarious video that really helped him understand the importance of just listening and not sweating small details. Here is the YouTube video Jeff mentions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
"Dream Bird" by Jonny Easton
Thank you for listening to Warrior Moms podcast. It is an honor to share about our beloved children gone too soon, and we hope by telling of our loss, it may help someone in their grief journey. Please note that we are not medical professionals and encourage those listening to seek help from mental health professionals.
We'd love to hear from our followers!
Website: https://www.warriormoms.me/
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Instagram: WarriorMoms.SurvivingChildLoss
With love,
Warrior Moms Amy & Michele
Well, hello and welcome back to.
Speaker 2:Warrior Moms. Yes, welcome back, I am.
Speaker 1:Amy, and I am Michelle, and we are glad you're here with us today. Amy, as she said, has wrangled her husband to join us today, which we're so appreciative. Jeff, thank you for joining us in the studio.
Speaker 3:It's good to be here.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Well, today, Amy and I, we've had several conversations over the last month, just after the new year, about just grief in the new year and being in a place.
Speaker 2:that's hard and how I have been just in a bad place. I have been angry and bitter and just unjoyful, yeah, even though you might agree the day, and you try your best, just inside, you're just not happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not feeling good, and so I just wanted to get on and Amy and Jeff certainly have. You know, they have a you know a sad story, of course, of losing Alec, and for them they really have endured what you know many psychologists would say compounded grief. And so we just wanted to talk about that. Like, how do you live through that and this? You know, just constant, and one on top of another addition of losses, and you know how that feels and what do you do.
Speaker 2:So, let's so I'll start. So we in so May of 2019, we lost Alec. Then in February of 2021, so almost two years later, we lost Jeff's dad and in all actuality, today I think this is kind of what prompted the podcast for today and us talking was today is his dad's angel day. He's been gone four years, so that I know that we talk a lot about kids, but there's, you know, there's so much loss, especially with your father that you know because I still have both of my parents, and so this was our.
Speaker 2:This is our first battle with the battle. I don't know the right word, but this is our first battle with the battle. I don't know the right word, but this is our first encounter with losing a parent, and I know that a lot of people around us do that. So so that compounded grief, it still comes.
Speaker 1:You know, losing your dad Jeff, just a year after losing Alec, I mean that had to be. Just talk about that. What was that like for y'all?
Speaker 3:So you know, losing Alec was awful. I just remember the day and I found out before Amy did and having to go tell her yes, obviously it was the hardest thing that I've ever had to do. And then going through all that. You know, alec was my stepson but I loved him like a child and tried to raise him as my own. And then, yes, two years later I lost my father, one of the COVID deaths. I don't know if COVID killed him or the vaccine killed him.
Speaker 2:We always say complications of COVID is what? Yeah, all the things right.
Speaker 3:But yeah, addiction. My dad did not have addictions, His dad did and my grandfather was. I never really knew him, but he was a alcoholic, but anyways.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, but your grandfather dealt with addiction, but what about losing your dad? This is the way we have to do sometimes, michelle is. I'm really bad about going off topic and I'm going to try to keep him on topic, even though neither one of us know how to do it, but anyway.
Speaker 3:Losing my dad. He was just him and my mom were great parents, raised us as Christians and faith has gotten us through a lot. My dad was just giving patient and with kids, with parents, you pick up the phone to say, hey, I want to call my dad and ask him this question on finances, or what should I invest in, or how should I handle this situation with my kid? And it's tough because he's not there. Same thing with Alec. So, yes, dealing with both has been difficult.
Speaker 1:And especially so soon after. I mean, those first two years of losing a child is a blur, and then it becomes a horrific reality. And I mean, within those first years heading into year three, you're still underwater and then you have the loss of somebody you're so close to. You know that's so hard.
Speaker 2:Well, and you know, I don't want to say it is different, but it is different but Jeff had had a conversation with his dad a few years before that and, knowing that he was a Christian and knowing that he had, yeah, he had told me he was having like a back surgery and I was worried about it and this was a blessing.
Speaker 3:But he said you don't need to worry about me. I've been married for almost 50 years. I've seen my kids, my grandkids, grow as Christians. I've accomplished everything I wanted on this earth I still want to be here, but if I go to heaven, that's where I ultimately want to be. Earth, I still want to be here, but if I go to heaven, that's where I ultimately want to be. And that was. You know we still miss him, but it's such a peace knowing that.
Speaker 2:And he had that faith and that is where he wants to be. And that is something different with losing a child is they haven't accomplished everything that we think that they wanted to accomplish.
Speaker 1:You, know, there is that big difference in those. Yeah, and we didn't get to have that conversation that you got to have with your dad. So then in those moments of sadness, you can replay your dad's words and have a little peace anyway.
Speaker 3:Yes, it made it, even though his death was unexpected. Those words made it somewhat easier, and you know, as a husband, we want to fix things too. I wanted my wife, I didn't want her to be sad, but I couldn't fix that. And so when you have another loss, it's like this reminds her of me, of Alex passing and just trying to be strong as a husband.
Speaker 3:and just trying to be strong as a husband, and you know, we don't always get to share our grief because we're men and we hold it in. I guess a little more.
Speaker 1:What did you do that in those you know you had lost your dad and you're trying to be strong. Where do you go, or what do you do to gain that strength to help Amy with her grief?
Speaker 3:One of the things that somebody told us in a grief counseling that has always stuck with me is two words it's grace and space, space and grace. Give her grace if she wants to lay in the bed all day, or do that for a week. Give her the space to do it and don't get mad, don't be like. Get up, face the world, because we do want them to get back and live life. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:But it's not going to happen overnight, it's not going to. You know, it's been five years and she still has days that she lays in the bed or doesn't want to do anything.
Speaker 2:But so it's just patience and just like grace and space um and like we've said time and time again, and I think what he just said too, is you can't rush the grief process.
Speaker 3:You can't rush it no, and you can't fix it that's the hardest word for a man right there.
Speaker 2:I can't fix it.
Speaker 1:That is so unbelievably hard. And then, after losing your dad, then y'all lost Josh, who worked for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so Josh went to no Longer Bound also. He was just so full, such a big spirit energetic.
Speaker 2:He was a punk, just like Alec, yeah.
Speaker 1:Did? Alec and Josh know each other.
Speaker 3:A little bit.
Speaker 2:Josh knew of Alec Mm-hmm and I don't know that Alec ever met him, but he came in at the tail end of when Alec was.
Speaker 1:They would have been probably really good friends, or they would have fought each other one or the other, because they were probably probably off and on, maybe yeah so there's definitely similarities there yeah, but we, we used to a better job of it.
Speaker 3:But work with guys, uh, coming out of no Longer Bound, tried to help them get jobs, raise money through the pizza party to help with various things. But yeah, josh worked with me, he was doing fantastic, he was a great worker. And then, you know, like so many times, just went through a little struggle and most of these guys, I think, struggle with relationships with girls and they just want the perfect life and life's not perfect. But yes, josh was working and he took his own life. Yes, josh was working and he took his own life.
Speaker 3:And that kind of really made Amy and I take a step back.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because, like you said, the compounding grief, it's like I don't want to be close to anybody that might die. Yes, absolutely. Which is weird to say, but but that's an honest feeling, absolutely yeah, Josh was that one. You know, they all hurt, that one hurt. A lot yeah.
Speaker 1:And going to his funeral. I just I can't imagine that had to be so difficult.
Speaker 3:No, the first. His mom called me at.
Speaker 2:Middle of the night.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she was living in California, so I think she found out at whatever time 11 o'clock or something but called a couple times in the middle of the night. And that's one thing I have learned is I keep my phone on silent and I keep it away, because I at least want one more good night of sleep. If I get bad news, I want it to be at least find out on a good night of sleep. If I get bad news, I want it to be at least find out on a good night's sleep. That sounds a little crazy that I even think that way, but that's what it's turned into.
Speaker 1:So, yes, knowing her pain too, of losing the child and having to talk to her first and find it out was impossible, it's just gut-wrenching, because you wouldn't wish it on anyone to have to live through the loss of a child and you know exactly how she feels.
Speaker 2:So it's horrible and it's like Jeff said we have to take a step back. It set us back emotionally. You know it's kind of like you take a step forward and two steps back and it just, and it doesn't. I mean, granted, he wasn't our child, but it was close. It was, he was close.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he was close. Yeah, you see, somebody that went from the bottom, had no good transportation, didn't have any money to making money.
Speaker 2:Living on his own.
Speaker 3:Living on his own, getting a vehicle and all these positive things and you just get so excited about all that. And then it's. I've told a lot of guys you know one decision can end everything, all the good you've done one bad decision. One bad day can end it all um, and that's that's scary but it's so real because, especially as a 20 year old, 22, you feel like superman, can't be, can't hurt me, I'm not gonna die no um, so that that hit hard, because I could just see he had a bright future.
Speaker 1:Now you mentioned the pizza party and you know no longer bound. When was Alex's his pizza party, where you do the fundraising? Had you all already started that before Josh had died, or where does that fit into?
Speaker 3:the timeline. Yes, Pizza Party we started the year after.
Speaker 2:It was the year after.
Speaker 3:So, 2019. The year after you lost Alec.
Speaker 2:It must have been, I don't know. Yes, it had been. This is our fifth year. We're going into our fifth year.
Speaker 3:And Josh and a lot of the guys would come help set up for that and do things.
Speaker 1:Hard work. Did you do the pizza party then that year, after losing?
Speaker 2:Josh Yep.
Speaker 3:We've not missed a year.
Speaker 2:Yes, we did, we just stepped away, uh, we jeff used to go to tea and cake every week and get like in the trenches with the guys and get to really know them and we would have them over for dinner and we would.
Speaker 3:You know, we just ride, go-kart tracks, paintball, paintball wars and like truly get involved, yeah, and their everyday life pretty much.
Speaker 2:So that's where it, that's where it stung. And then, you know, there were so many guys in that group that we've become a part of their lives and a part of their story, and they've become a part of their lives and a part of their story and they've become a part of our story. Yes, and it just, you know, and that's where when you start losing those guys, or they start making stupid decisions and you can see where the path is going, but they can't. It's just hard to watch and we just couldn't. We had to put up our boundaries.
Speaker 2:And that's something that, I think, is grieving people and grieving parents and stuff like that In general.
Speaker 1:you need to put up boundaries for yourself in order to be able to and it makes me think of that phrase grace and space, like you guys did that for yourselves, that you needed that grace to say I can't be involved with the guys right now and space away from it.
Speaker 2:And we're still very supportive of the whole addiction recovery community and stuff like that. We still do the pizza parties. We still love for all the guys to come, we love it and we love spreading awareness about addiction and recovery and that it is possible.
Speaker 3:But on a bigger level on a broader level.
Speaker 2:if that makes sense, it does make sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then Alec had a roommate, mike Cannon, and same thing he's doing great. It seemed like he would change jobs a lot but he was always trying to better himself and move up and again was doing great and then had some just bad things.
Speaker 2:He was poisoned by fentanyl.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, and losing him was hard. I wasn't as close to Mike, but it was super hard too, because kind of you know, when you lose somebody close, it's always people that think like you don't want to talk about it, but you do want to talk about it. And Mike was one of those that we could talk to and laugh about the stories, because Alec and him were roommates, so it was like we lost that too.
Speaker 2:We lost a part of Alec again. We lost another piece of Alec.
Speaker 1:Yes, because every time we would talk to him.
Speaker 2:like Jeff said, it was a new story about Alec that we hadn't heard.
Speaker 3:Yes, we could laugh about stupid things that they did, and so we were close with Mike, but it certainly wasn't like my dad or Alec, but it was like losing another part of Alec and losing Mike. Because, now I know what loved ones close to him are having to deal with, and we lost that piece selfishly. He's a great person, but we also got to live Alec's life through him again.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So what do y'all do? How do you refuel in the midst of all this sadness? I look at the two of you and I think about your vivacious daughter and your great business that you all run and your beautiful home and land and all the things, and I I think from the outside people wouldn't know um this deep sadness that y'all carry. So what do you do?
Speaker 3:For me it's, um you know, faith is a lot Having a belief in another life of heaven after this. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Like with Alec, he had demons, Even though he had a lot of good times in life. He also struggled with depression. He struggled with the addiction. And I'm not saying that I, you know, I'd rather Alec be here. But I guess I tell myself and I believe it's true, but maybe I tell myself so many times that I just hope it's true or make myself believe it. But, like my dad told me, he's going to a place where he wants to be. I'm like you know, Alec now doesn't have those struggles. Alec is in a place where we miss him. But the other thing I think is the biggest thing for me with my dad and with Alec and with Josh and I'll get to another one, unfortunately is, I know none of them would want me to sit here and not try to enjoy life and not try to enjoy life. I know if Alec could come back and talk to me, or Amy especially, the first thing he would say is not that I miss you, not that I love you, that, Mom, I'm okay.
Speaker 1:I want you to be happy. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And that voice does that drive you, then it does when I get down, Because I'll talk to Alec, I'll talk to Josh, I'll talk to my dad.
Speaker 2:Which may sound crazy, but we're all a little crazy, right.
Speaker 3:We're all crazy in the door but he is as crazy does.
Speaker 3:But you know, they're all so close that I can talk to them and almost know what they would say back and even sometimes it might be a cuss word or two coming from my like and I picture riding in the car with him, you know, or in, or with josh working here at the house and goofing off with him, and I just like I see that joy and and what they would say to me, and that brings me a lot of peace. You know, I don't show the pain and I don't like you said, a lot of people don't see the grief. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:But it's there. But it is, I guess, manageable that I know. What they want from me is you know, and what you want for your kids is happiness. Yeah, for me is you know, and what you want for your kids is is happiness. Yeah, if something happened to me, I don't want amy and layla down here just sitting on the couch crying every day yes yeah, well, and that's weird.
Speaker 2:But sometimes I want to see jeff's grief, you know, like, because he does go and it's I know he has it and I know that he'll grieve or cry or whatever he does away from me and I try to do it away from him, but sometimes I just can't hide it full, you know, full term, and sometimes I think that I need to see Jeff's grief for Alec to know that he really does Like, do you really miss him? Like?
Speaker 1:you know like yeah.
Speaker 2:I think you're done Like what you know, but I know I know that isn't true, Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, does it. Just even today, amy, does this. Um. What does this do for your heart? Hearing Jeff talk through?
Speaker 2:some of this it's well, you know, and that is something it warms my heart it does, and I think that it is Jeff and I communicate a lot, and if I'm and that's something that I think that we've we've always communicated well, but in this we have to like we have to communicate because he doesn't have any clean underwear right now, and you know and he knows.
Speaker 3:Stuff that comes out of her mouth. But I think the biggest thing that goes along with the grace is being able to tell your spouse like hey, today is a shitty day.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I need grace, yeah, where I might not fuss about dishes in the sink that day, like, okay, this really isn't a big deal, because you do learn with death that a lot of things aren't a big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, things that you thought were important gosh really go by the wayside.
Speaker 3:Yeah. If I get like I cleaned my truck today and found my first two big scratches on it and for a second I was kind of upset and I'm like it's really not a big deal. Fortunately, when you go through so much loss and pain, you learn like do I really need to have this argument with my wife?
Speaker 2:I didn't scratch your truck.
Speaker 3:Or my child. It's possible.
Speaker 1:It's possible.
Speaker 3:But I really need to get upset about this because it's really not a big deal.
Speaker 1:I love that. Grace and space. That is so powerful. I haven't heard those two terms, and what an easy two words to remember. And it's so powerful.
Speaker 3:Well, the other thing, too, that I have learned is, as a man, like I said, we want to fix things. If our daughter or son or wife comes home and has a bad day, we want to tell them how to fix it. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I'm still not great at it, but I've gotten a lot better that. Really they just want to, especially with women. They just want to tell you what went on and what's going on, and really I just need to listen and say, oh, I bet that makes you feel better I know you're upset Instead of saying, well, if you get up and go for a walk, it would make you feel better. Yeah. Which is what I really believe sometimes, yeah.
Speaker 2:And he still says that.
Speaker 3:But there's days, you know, like, I think my daughter quit talking to me a little bit because I try to fix everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I had to learn. Like I can't tell her how to make friends or deal with friends at school, I just need to listen, so those grace and space and just listening instead of trying to fix. And if you've never seen the nail in the head. Look it up and it'll explain a lot.
Speaker 1:I will do that it's funny.
Speaker 2:This lady literally has a nail in her head.
Speaker 3:All men need to watch nail in the head and learn to ignore the nail.
Speaker 1:I have seen it. I know exactly what you're talking about. We need to put a link in our description. We have to oh my gosh, we will for sure, yeah, where she's got this giant nail in her description. We have to. Oh my gosh, we will for sure, yeah, where she's got this giant nail in her head, my sweaters keep snagging and he's like well.
Speaker 3:She's just like quit trying to fix it.
Speaker 1:That's unbelievable. Well, thank goodness you don't have a nail in your head, amy, but it feels like it on many, many days. For sure, tell us about um just this last, um major grief that y'all have endured, just a huge loss again yeah, so uh, brett, his name was Brett Oglesby.
Speaker 3:We became friends in, I think, not positive but around second grade.
Speaker 2:Could have been a little earlier. Some say first, some say second, but it's one of those friends that you don't remember when you met, because they've just always been there. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Forever, friend yeah. And we've been through so much great things, so much bad things together, and Brett struggled with addiction. He probably was sober for about 10 years and helped so many other people. He helped us with Alec.
Speaker 2:So much Educated us on what addiction really was. Wow. What Alec was really feeling, as opposed to us just writing it off. You know, yeah, educated, not just helped.
Speaker 3:Yeah, going back to fixing it. We're just like you. Just got to stop, because this is what happens and it's you know not understanding the addiction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a whole other just type of grief, right.
Speaker 3:Not only was he a great friend, he helped a lot of people in that. And then, long story short, he got CP3.
Speaker 2:CP3 is what it was finally.
Speaker 3:Diagnosed? I think yeah, and it was debilitating to him and he had lost kind of the fun of living and just was he tried everything.
Speaker 2:He was diagnosed probably five or six years ago with that.
Speaker 1:Is that like a breathing lung?
Speaker 3:It's kind of like.
Speaker 2:Vestibular probably like.
Speaker 3:Vertigo Meniere, something kind of like that. But yeah but, you're always kind of felt a little dizzy or off. And even you know, three or four years ago he told me like if I can't figure out how to get this fixed, I don't want to live anymore. The only reason I'm still even here is because of my faith in my daughter and the people I love because of my faith in my daughter and the people I love.
Speaker 3:So eventually it won the battle. But I know his faith was so strong and he probably would have taken his own life earlier if it wasn't for his faith in his family but his quality of life. So, like I was saying with him how I deal with it I was angry, I was happy because he was such a good friend and you don't like to see people suffer and you know, certainly sad and depressed.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:But I still have. We had kind of the family here and had a ceremony, celebration of life, and I've kept those pictures out in our little workshop garage and I don't know when I'll take them down. But you know, I talk to him when I'm out there and that's the same thing. Like I say, brett, I need to call you today, and it's like, and then I get mad and I get upset and then I'm like I just hear him saying Jeff, my life was so miserable and I am so happy now. Yeah, because I do believe you know that's where he is in heaven.
Speaker 2:And he passed about two months ago just for the listeners' time frame. Yeah, I mean, it's still raw. This is what.
Speaker 3:It was the day before Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1:I mean, you're still processing it, you know.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I guess the hardest hurt I have with that is with his wife and his daughter, with his wife and his daughter, because again I feel like for him, I need to fix those or try to be there and stress do I do enough or do I not do anything?
Speaker 3:So I think that's the biggest hardest thing for a man in this, because we try to be strong and we try not to share our feelings and we want to fix things and we don't especially like I don't want Amy to see me upset, because I already know she's upset or maybe she's having a good day and now I'm going to bring her down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things just as I'm listening, I mean a message. That is my takeaway is just your ability to you know you put the pictures on the wall, you talk to your dad, you talk to Alec, you talk to Brett that you're facing your grief, you're surrounding your own self just with those guys that you love and you're willing to sit with your grief at least a part of the day. And I know that's so painful and yet I'm sure that's really helpful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like I said, the only thing I can always go back to is I know they want me. Every one of them want me to be as happy as I can be. They all want me to enjoy life as much as I can. And that's difficult, a lot of days. Yeah. But if I want to honor them and not let them have regrets or anything, then that's what I got to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. Sometimes I feel like if I'm having too good of a time, then she feels guilty.
Speaker 3:There's guilt. Amy does feel guilt.
Speaker 2:I think you know family vacations and she feels guilty that she I don't want them to think that we're just, we're happy they're gone, you know, because I do believe that they can see us and all that kind of stuff, and I'm like, oh well, look, they are fine without me.
Speaker 1:You know, like their life is better without me and it's not better, right, yeah, and so that's where I have issues, right, and trying to tap into that voice that you had said, jeff, where you can imagine Alec coming and saying Mom, I just want you to be happy. Heck, yeah, yeah, saying mom, I just want you to be happy, yeah, yeah. So, amy, you and I have talked in the last you know month that you're just so sad and so angry. And, um, and I know, jeff, you said you can see that in Amy, that you know, you know, amy. You said you, you don't have any. That you know, you know, amy.
Speaker 2:You said you don't have any you don't have any clean underwear, you know and it. But I mean I sent you a picture of my closet. One day you can walk in there, and that's not me. Granted, I am a hoarder and a clutter freak, but I am good at laundry. Like and I told Jeff early in our marriage and I've said this on here before too my laundry room and my clothes and stuff like that. It shows, it mirrors, what my life really is and it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you know that when that's a mess, you know you're having a hard time.
Speaker 3:Yes, but Amy is also. She's good about not, you know not, she needs her days, but she doesn't. She's good about not living that for try not to for too long.
Speaker 3:And if I need her to go be social for a night or do something, even if it's the last thing she wants to do, she does do that and I think that's just as important as the grace and space to for each other to do things that you don't want to do because of your grief, because it's hard to go to the family my side of the family vacation but I'm not going to miss it yeah so, but she's going to, she's gonna be there, um, and and I appreciate that because it's she you both have to make sacrifices and I think, I think it's important to, like I said, we do communicate in it and I think that is the biggest, biggest thing that has saved our faith is us.
Speaker 3:And not sweating the small stuff.
Speaker 2:For him not to sweat the small stuff, and for me to yeah, to lean in and say yes when you can. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not all the time like you do.
Speaker 4:Well, I'd say no plenty but I do have a yes problem maybe Leaning in and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So well, it's kind of cool to get. Is there anything else you want to know from a man while we got him pinned down right here? I?
Speaker 1:know. Well, if you had to say I mean, you've given such great advice, the grace and space, but what's kind of your advice? For how do you take care of you? What is it that gives you breath? You said your faith, for sure. You said hearing the voices of those you love, wanting you be happy, but what is it that you could say, like physically what? What do you do? What do you like? Where do you go to sort of get that um drive, I guess?
Speaker 3:I think there's a huge balance of like. I don't want to say for all men, but I like to be selfish at times and just whether it's go play golf or go to my hunting club, or I find my most peace outdoors.
Speaker 2:And he always he's a goer, he's a goer and a doer, so he's always busy.
Speaker 3:And so Amy, is, you know, finding that balance where Amy allows me to do a lot of that stuff?
Speaker 3:finding that balance where Amy allows me to do a lot of that stuff, but also still being present with the family is. But I think a key is I have to put on a face and Amy has to put on a face at times at home for our daughter, for each other to keep happiness, but also allowing that other one to have that space and go out and not feel like if she's having a bad day, I need to stay right next to her in the bed.
Speaker 2:He's allowed to have a good day and I have a bad day For me a good day and him a bad day. We allow that, and that is, I think, something hard to probably learn at the beginning is it has no reflection on him how my day is.
Speaker 1:In your just day-to-day life you've had these five compounded years of just grief and grief. How do you connect with one another in just this love relationship? How do you make sure that you have time like date nights, or you have this time for each other? Where do you carve that?
Speaker 2:in when you are caring so much.
Speaker 3:Great question, Michelle in when you're caring so much great question michelle no I think we, you know it like a great night for us together because we're boring, it's sitting and boring, the better it's it's sitting and just kind of being in the same room watching tv well, or sitting outside when it's nice outside, we love we're the old people in the rocking chairs on the patio and just watching the birds fly in the grass grow and just talking about yeah, dreaming about whatever you know building a house, or just we're dreamers and we just enjoy to.
Speaker 3:We need imagination. There's no magic wand and everybody grieves different. Because my grief may be riding around in my truck listening to music that really brings me peace and he does that a lot.
Speaker 2:He's got a song for everybody or more.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:They all have their own song. Oh, I love that. So when he's missing them, he'll play those songs.
Speaker 3:So that's great for me. But, like I said, amy grieves differently. You know hers is laying around, mine's driving around or going down. But you have to. You know, for me I have to stay busy. I've always said the idle time is the devil time. Then I sit around, then it's just going to get all in my head and keep going and keep going and getting worse and worse.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And just knowing that there is a higher power and that, for me, is God.
Speaker 2:And we will see him again one day.
Speaker 3:Yes. And when we get there, I don't want them to say why did you live your life in so much sadness? Mm-hmm. And I want them to be able to say like you celebrated me, you remembered me. I know that when you were fishing, you were talking to me.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 3:And you, you know, I'm glad that you enjoyed life, because that's what I want.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful, jeff. I love that. Well, I don't know about you, amy, but, gosh, I got so much from just hearing the two of you talk. I'm so sorry about all of the losses.
Speaker 2:I just appreciate you sharing that it sucks on so many levels, as we all know Too many levels, I am certain of that, yeah, but we appreciate you.
Speaker 1:You know being vulnerable and sharing what you've learned and the hard days, the good days and that space and grace. That's just amazing advice.
Speaker 2:You got to tell Jeremy that one.
Speaker 1:I am Make a t-, jeremy, that one, I am Make a t-shirt, yes, I love it.
Speaker 2:Well, thank y'all. Thank you, Michelle, for taking time and doing this.
Speaker 3:Yes, appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, until next time, we'll post, for sure, the nail head link. We got to find it and post it. We'll find it and put it on there.
Speaker 3:Some very, very important.
Speaker 2:It was a pivotal moment in his life where it just like clicked, he got it.
Speaker 3:Don't fix it, just listen.
Speaker 1:Just listen Even if she's got a nail sticking all the way through her head. That's so good Well thank you all. Thank you, good night and we'll talk soon.
Speaker 2:Bye.
Speaker 3:Bye-bye.