Warrior Moms: Surviving Child Loss
This podcast features Amy Durham and Michele Davis, two of the Warrior Moms, who will guide listeners through their grief journey. Every fourth or fifth episode will showcase another Warrior Mom, the trauma they endured, stories about their beloved child, and tips on how they get out of bed every day.
Each and every Warrior Moms' story is different, the children and the loss is different, but one thing they share is the decision to live. They have figured out how to live life putting one foot in the past and the other moving forward. Yes, it's beyond awful. Yes, it's hard. Yes, it's worth it. And yes, they say, you can survive child loss AND thrive.
Warrior Moms: Surviving Child Loss
Normalizing Grief and Finding Joy with Dr. Natasha Trujillo: Ep 28
Can you truly find joy after profound loss? Join us as we explore this compelling question with Dr. Natasha Trujillo, a psychologist who has dedicated her career to helping individuals navigate the intertwining paths of grief, trauma, and performance. In this heartfelt conversation, Dr. Trujillo shares insights from her multifaceted career, explaining how grief often intersects with other mental health issues like eating disorders and trauma. Her experiences working with athletes and her deeply personal book provide a foundation for discussing the importance of normalizing grief and avoiding self-criticism along the way.
Family dynamics play a crucial role in our understanding and processing of trauma, as Dr. Trujillo elaborates on the empathy that can arise from recognizing a parent's past traumas. We discuss the unique challenges faced by grieving mothers and the importance of "doing the work" to navigate through grief. From basic survival tasks to deeper therapeutic efforts, Dr. Trujillo stresses the necessity of integrating loss into one’s life while maintaining commitment despite fluctuating motivation. Practical strategies for managing social interactions and the dual nature of life events are also discussed, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging both gains and losses.
Living with both joy and sorrow is a complex journey, one that we explore through various lenses. Dr. Trujillo underscores the significance of open communication within families and respecting each individual's unique coping mechanisms. We touch on the book And She Was Never The Same Again, a multi-generational memoir that encapsulates the lasting effects of grief and loss on families. This episode is a powerful reminder of the value of self-awareness, mutual understanding, and open dialogue in navigating grief and supporting each other. Join us for this insightful discussion and discover how facing grief can eventually lead to finding joy.
"Dream Bird" by Jonny Easton
Thank you for listening to Warrior Moms podcast. It is an honor to share about our beloved children gone too soon, and we hope by telling of our loss, it may help someone in their grief journey. Please note that we are not medical professionals and encourage those listening to seek help from mental health professionals.
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Website: https://www.warriormoms.me/
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With love,
Warrior Moms Amy & Michele
Well, hello and welcome back to.
Speaker 2:Warrior Moms. I am Michelle Davis and I am Amy Durham, and we're so glad that y'all are here and we have a very special guest with us today. Michelle, you want to introduce her a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yes, we have Dr Natasha Trujillo here with us, who is a psychologist who specializes in grief and trauma and all sorts of things. We're going to have her, um, tell us more about her specialties and, um, she has a beautiful book that Amy and I both, um have read and it was a great read. Yeah, oh, my God, um, and she was never the same, right Again, is that the name? Am I saying that, right, um? But it was just this beautiful memoir, like for me personally, of you know, you being a psychologist and yet hearing you just be vulnerable as what were your own grief and trauma and, of course, that's what our podcast is all about. Is Amy and I just getting on here and just talking? What are we dealing with? What are the warrior moms dealing with? And just trying to, exactly like what you said in the book, normalize grief and what all that means. So tell us a little bit about what your current passions are in psychology.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely Well. First and foremost, thank you both so much for having me on, and I'm glad the book spoke to you, and that is was exactly my intention, right? I want people just to be able to read someone else's story, or pieces of someone else's story, and be able to kind of reflect on themselves and figure out, you know, what is in this for me and how is this going to help me with my own brief journey and process. So thank you for having me on.
Speaker 3:I'm a counseling and sports psychologist, so that's a fancy way of saying I was trained as a general psychologist, so all things mental health. And then I specialize in sport and performance psychology, so getting more clinical and specialized training and working with athletes. I'm in private practice currently and so in that role I do a few different things. I do a lot of individual therapy with athletes Not everyone I work with is an athlete and I do both current and former athletes but most of my caseload is collegiate, pro and Olympic athletes, which is super fun. And then clinically I specialize in grief and loss, as you said, eating disorders, trauma, anxiety and depressive disorders, perfectionism, and then all things performance you love it.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm the type that just jumps right ahead and do it like I hear something and I just want to comes from the grief, the traumatic like with us, the traumatic loss and the grief. A lot of times the perfectionism and the mental health disorders like eating disorders and all that type stuff come from, come out of the grief too, or you know what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh. Yes, absolutely In fact. That's something that's why I love specializing in both, for example, eating disorders and grief and loss. And then if you throw trauma in there too, there's so much grief and loss. Even if you choose recovery right, you know, someone chooses to get treatment and they recover from their eating disorder there's still a lot of grief and loss in that, and so it's like sometimes recovery brings grief and loss. There's obviously grief and loss with having something to begin with or from experiencing a trauma to begin with, and so there's just so many layers and I feel like those issues can be so interconnected and people don't talk about that a lot. Right, like grief is almost this own separate issue and it's like no, if you've had trauma, you. There's also a grief process associated with that. Now, not all grief means that there is trauma, but with all comma, all trauma, comes grief, in my opinion at least, right.
Speaker 2:They gotta fix the whole circle for it to go around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and that was one of the things that I wanted to ask you in your book you had talked about how that was really a goal of the book was to have someone read the story and to normalize that part of the human fabric that you know we all are wrapped in is this is that we all experience grief and for us I know, amy and I talk about it a lot and that our warrior moms group um with child loss, it's out of the normal.
Speaker 1:You know, normal in quotes, um, timeline of life and um, I think that's you know, having to face that grief I think every day. You know it's kind of like we lose our breath all over again. What would be? We're just going to start with a really hard question, but what would be your advice? I don't think that's quite the right word, but just what's your thoughts about? You know how we should face it, and not that there's one path, but just some thoughts about dealing with just that horrific sadness and yet knowing that we also need to face that to find joy again.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely, and I love the way that you asked that, even because it allows me to jump right in with this idea of should, and so that is one of the first things that I encourage people to think about is try to rid yourself from that word as part of your vocabulary as you're doing this, because there is not a how-to, there is not a right way and there is not just one way to do this, and it looks different each and every day. Right, sometimes multiple times a day it can look different, and so that is often where I tell people you know that you're not crazy, that's actually quite normal, and it's a roller coaster. Nobody wants to be on, necessarily, but I think adding this element of self-criticism and judgment on yourself and setting these expectations of what you should be doing actually sets you back and prevents you from continuing to do the work and to figure out how to integrate the loss into your life more.
Speaker 1:Well, it makes sense. I love Amy's phrase that she often reminds us where moms is. Well, you say it, amy, feel the feels that she often reminds us where moms is. Well, you say it, Amy Feel the feels, Feel the feels.
Speaker 2:If you're happy, be happy. If you're sad, be sad. Acknowledge it, identify it and keep growing with it.
Speaker 3:So yeah, yeah, I also think too, setting realistic expectations about an end point needs to take place in that there is no, there is no end point With really significant losses. We are never going to return to a former version of ourselves, and that's why I named the book part of why I named the book and she was never the same again. Best title ever, I think. Yeah, thank you. That was actually the very first thing. Before I even started writing the book. I knew what the last line of the book was going to be.
Speaker 2:And I knew what the last line of the book was going to be, and I knew what the title was going to be in every chapter, almost like, and she was never the same again like every, which is true. You go through this and you're you're not the same person.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so you don't want to set expectations to try to return to that Cause I hear that a lot. Right, people will start working with me and they'll say, oh, I just wish I was back to normal or I just wish I was who I used to be, which tells me a couple things right. One is that you do feel or believe like that's possible, because it's not. But then the other piece of that is another grief process, because, yes, you've lost this person or this thing that's really important to you, but then you're also recognizing that you've lost aspects of yourself, or that certain ways of being for you are shifting, and so I think that's an even more complicated, more layered grief process.
Speaker 2:On top, I know that right after I lost my son Alec, he I was like okay, I think it was six weeks and I was at a grief therapist office or grief counselor or whatever and I was like, okay, I'm just, I just want to hurry up, hurry this up, like I just want to get back to normal, like I just want to go ahead. I know I'm going to be upset, but I just want to. I just want let's just go ahead and fix this now and then I can get back to my daily life. And that didn't happen.
Speaker 2:It's kind of weird. You know, here we are five years out and it's still not. I'm still not back to my daily life as it was before. So, and I think that is what you said, a big part of the grief is I'm not capable literally capable of doing some things that I did before.
Speaker 3:Well, and again, the word you use there, right, still. Because that sends this message of like okay, I'm, I don't have it together yet, or like what is wrong with me or why haven't I figured this out? So I would encourage you even with that word it just, it just is what it is now. So that idea of still, I mean you are, you are moving forward, you are still living your life, and so if we can just eliminate that a little bit and give you a different perspective where it's like, yeah, I'm not, I know I'm not going to return to that former self and that is not the goal.
Speaker 2:I'm just figuring out how to readjust and adapt to what I have now we really do that with every part of our life, not just with the grief part, not just with losing our children. But, like I was just talking to my husband earlier, he's like I hope in 15 years I can still, you know, like hang deer stands and stuff, because he's getting ready for hunting season we're hello Georgia, so you know he's getting ready for hunting season. He's like I hope in 15 years I can still hang a deer stand. And I was like I don't, I don't think that our bodies in 15 years are going to be able to do what we think they can do. Sure years are going to be able to do what we think they can do.
Speaker 3:Sure, and that's just the evolution of time. Oh for sure, yeah, first and foremost, I love the hunting reference. I'm from Wyoming, so that makes a lot of sense to me. But yes, and this is also a huge reason why I wrote the book, so each chapter of my book is focused on a different type of grief and loss, because I think another huge misconception is that, well, I'm not grieving if I haven't suffered a death loss, and that is so not true, and even if you have suffered a death loss, there are other grief processes that come along with that, that have nothing to do with death.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and this kind of goes with it, your chapter where you were talking about trauma shadows really was striking. Yeah, it was really striking to me, of course, and you were talking about kind of generational, which for us, you know, we're kind of like the first bearer of that torch, right, because it's our child that's died. And so now our grief and our decisions and our relationships, we're carrying that into so much of course of our every daily life and I was wondering, I wanted to ask you, what advice could you give us to recognize that we're, you know, we might be pulling that grief into these decisions and maybe we need something to kind of like step back and give ourselves, I don't know, some grace or something to just so that you aren't, I guess you know, perpetuating or carrying extra anger or whatever it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, two things come to mind right off the bat, right, and that is being self-aware and kind of knowing yourself and knowing how a significant loss has impacted you. And then the other is being willing to do the work right, like how much are you willing or wanting to accept that that could affect you, and so how aware do you want to be and what do you want to do with that? I think that's also part of why I really wanted to include the trauma shadows chapter, because for me, not just as a psychologist but as a daughter knowing and understanding some of my mom's traumas that occurred before I was even alive right, that's not my story.
Speaker 3:I was not there for a lot of those things, but it makes me understand where she is coming from in a way that doesn't make me any less frustrated, sometimes, right, like I still get. She's still my mom, right, so I'm still gonna get irritated. However, it allows me to take a step back and when I'm able to make sense of what's going on for her, I cope with it better.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And so that's also what I would encourage, and even her being able to have that awareness of like, yeah, of course I'm going to worry about you and be super focused on your health, because I almost died when you were born and then you almost died when you were, so all of these things pile up and she was like I have some pretty good reasons to be anxious.
Speaker 1:And so her trauma response.
Speaker 3:Her grief response is often that anxiety of like I just must control and fix and make sure nothing happens. And then we have to say okay. But that also means you kind of just want me to live in a bubble and not do anything with my life, and that's not really balance right?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and you said, you know you were talking about that. You know we have to do the work and at our wire moms group we'll often have, you know, new moms that that will come. And you know, I mean gosh Amy, some of them are what, two, three weeks after we have had various, I mean yes, and we're so glad that they you know that they have been brave enough to come and to carry that grief We've had some that still cannot even say their child's name, Like they can't even.
Speaker 2:They're crying so hard they can't even get their child's name out to even begin to tell us.
Speaker 1:And then something that you know those of us that are further along, you know in years anyway of you know, from when our child has passed is we've wondered how do you say that to somebody? Because that's something that we've realized is the moms that continue to come back to warrior moms are the ones that are very intentional about exactly what you're saying do the work. So I just wondered what? From your professional lens? What does that, what does do the work really mean?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Again, it all starts with awareness and I think it starts with being able to be honest with yourself and just kind of see how certain events in your life have impacted you. I mean, essentially that's why I wrote the entire book, because I was grieving and I was not impressed with how I was grieving and I was like what is going on Right, like what?
Speaker 1:what is?
Speaker 3:happening that I'm in this place, and so I think doing the work requires a certain level of vulnerability that is not for the faint of heart right, and sometimes that can be really, really challenging.
Speaker 3:But I think I've also noticed in the longer I've done this work as a psychologist you have to meet people where they are and so, for example, right one of the chapters in my book I talked quite a bit about my grandpa and my dad's side and some of the intergenerational relationships. I so badly want him to do his own work, and if he's not willing, I can't do anything about that.
Speaker 3:But, I can at least set the stage and try to show up as a good example and let people know, hey, I'm doing the work for me and it's open, if you want to take it like it could. So sometimes it's just planting seeds to take it right Like it could.
Speaker 2:So sometimes it's just planting seeds and saying you know Well and I have a follow-up question to that too so okay, so we're going to tell these moms that are, you know, two months out, three months out, and we're like you just have to do the work. And then the question back is well, what is the work?
Speaker 3:Yes, oh my gosh. Yes, and especially like right after. Sometimes they're my default responses you just got to survive. Yeah, I don't know that we're trying to dig in and do a lot of deep work right after, and so sometimes I think and this it's a bit of an ambiguous answer which can really frustrate people sometimes, but I do think it is the right answer, which is like the work looks like, whatever you need it to be- that day.
Speaker 3:So if you just need to make sure you get three meals in, that day right If you just need to make sure you get whatever responsibility that you really need to tend to that day. So I think sometimes doing the work is that just sort of tangible what do I need to do to survive versus what is the work you know in like a deeper therapeutic sort of are you?
Speaker 3:aware of what you were doing and then just, you know the baby steps and yeah, yeah, I also think a lot about integrating the loss into your life as part of doing the work, because, again, we can't separate these things and have multiple versions of ourselves. The loss is going to be carried with us. And so when I think about that idea of integration, I think about facing reality and accepting reality, and I always encourage people to think through. You don't have to like or agree with something to accept that it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that it is right.
Speaker 3:So I think that can also be something that encourages people to do the work a little bit more where it's like I don't, and giving themselves a little bit of leeway with the motivation. You're not going to have the same level of motivation every single day. I talk a lot about the difference between commitment and motivation. So can you be consistently committed to something such as right doing the work, but motivation changes on the daily? Yeah, absolutely, but I like to kind of section that out and help people understand. You know we want you to be committed to trying to figure out what rebuilding your life looks like, but we also know that that is not going to look the same every day. So the work will change and that's okay.
Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah, so the work will change and that's okay, I love that yeah, I do too. You just had a nice bow on it.
Speaker 3:For us, that was perfect, yes exactly, I wish None of these things. Have nice bows on them.
Speaker 1:There are no bows in this. Well, and you had talked a little bit about you know. I wondered if you know well, you had said that in your book that interviewing and talking on the phone and reading the chapters back to your loved ones, that all that was therapeutic for you and you could see some of it being very therapeutic to your family. Is that part of that work too? I mean, does it have to come in talking aloud, or are there other ways that you can kind of face the grief but you know, not just like sitting in your own head, but is there something about having to do it outwardly in some way, even if it's not sharing to another human?
Speaker 3:Such a great question.
Speaker 3:That's part of why I wrote the book right, Because I'm a psychologist and I specialize in grief and loss, and I was having trouble with my own grief, and so there was a lot of shame there. There was a lot of like I can't talk to it, I'm the expert, whatever that means, right? What is that about? So that's why I started writing, and I always encourage people, especially with something like grief. You do not have to go sit in a circle with a bunch of other people and swap stories.
Speaker 3:There are so many ways to be vulnerable. There are so many ways to allow some of what bounces around in your head to be externalized, and it doesn't always require that another person has to be there. Now, I think the idea of connection is really important. So, whatever it is you're choosing to do, do you feel connected to that thing, or connected to yourself, or connected to your values or to other people? So I think that plays a long role, a strong role. But I also don't I don't want people thinking too narrowly that you know, doing the work means you have to go to individual therapy and then you have to go to group therapy. I mean, it can look so many different ways and it's definitely not a one size fits all.
Speaker 2:I think that's a good, that's good advice, because so many people say, oh well, do you have a good therapist? You know, that's like their first thing, because they're trying to fix us, they're trying to fix our hurt and they're like oh well, have you found a good counselor? And you know, there's some women in our group that are like no, I don't want to talk to. I want to talk to y'all that have been through this, I don't want to talk to somebody else that has not been through this. And then they just tell me what they learned in a textbook. You know, and so it is. Everybody has different. And then there's some that see their therapist every week and they're like I have to and I need to, and you know, that's what helps me move forward.
Speaker 3:So yes, yes, you know, and of course I'm a little biased, but I believe in the power of therapy and I think it can be really useful. But you get out of therapy what you put into it right. And so if someone is truly like I'm not there and this is not for me, then that isn't something that I would recommend for them. Right? It's like you gotta hey, you gotta figure out what might be useful. That's the part of the work.
Speaker 3:You just brought up a beautiful point about the social constraint that I feel, like your group in particular might feel, more than other types of loss, and what I mean by social constraint is this loss. And what I mean by social constraint is this, this sense of because of what I've been through, this person or you know, I feel constrained. I feel like I can't fully be open or vulnerable because other people don't know how to deal with my feelings or with what I might say. And, like you said, there's this pressure where they want to say the right thing or they want to fix it or they want to make you feel better and I, and it's every aspect, whether it's going running into somebody at the grocery store or going to a child's soccer game and meeting new parents.
Speaker 1:I'm a teacher, so every single year at parent night, you know and you share about your family. I mean, there's just so many things that exactly that. I love that. Those two words together. The social constraint, because we crave that social afterwards, right, and yet there's kind of some guilt with wanting to be social and yet we are so constrained, feeling like we're going to ruin everybody's time because of what we're bringing to it somehow. Or they watch us walk in the door.
Speaker 3:When you think about how much that stunts the grief process, it has a really large impact on people. Social constraint was actually one of the variables in my dissertation when I was getting my doc and one of the things that I was looking at. I was actually looking at parent-child relationships and different types of parental absence and unmet needs, and I won't get too in the weeds here, but something that is super fascinating and one of the best examples I have to demonstrate this is if you have someone in your life who dies by suicide versus someone in your life who dies by cancer the constraint that you feel right.
Speaker 3:How comfortable do you feel saying this is how my loved one died. This is how my loved one died? That plays a huge role in how comfortable people feel being willing to get out and share and get that connection and support, because sometimes it's like I can my son.
Speaker 2:He was a recovering addict. You know he had alcoholism and addiction issues. However, he was sober at the time that he passed. He still had a bad day and drank so much and then drowned. And so you know it's just kind of weird. But there are people in our group whose children passed away of a fentanyl overdose. They weren't drug addicts but they experimented or tried it for the first. You know, whatever they were, you know did it socially, whatever, but they still and they have a hard time. You know here it took me years to say out loud that my son was an addict and I can say that out loud, that my son was an addict and I can say that. But for them they're still having that shame that their child even took a drug they took a Xanax that was laced with fentanyl or whatever. So and also the suicide they do have a different demeanor about, like you said, how they died and that is.
Speaker 1:That's huge. One of the things I had stumbled upon that first couple months after losing Carter was and it was actually in a psychologist a psychologist had written it about divorce but one of the pieces of it and she had gone through a divorce and she had said write your trauma story in three sentences and write it over and over again in a notebook, take it into the bathroom, say it to the mirror, say it until it's kind of that muscle memory. And that was something that really helped with that social constraint. It didn't make it easy but it helped me. Yeah, I knew what my sentences were going to be, to say how many children I had, what happened to Carter, so that it was kind of like a little bit freeing, like you know, like you have a tiny bit of control, you know where it's, like okay, I know, I know I can say this, I know what's coming out of my mouth A lot of times.
Speaker 2:I don't know what's coming out of my mouth.
Speaker 1:That helped me in particular. I'm not sure why, but Well, what is when you think about like something that you know we were just talking about, this social constraint and what goes along with that for so many of our moms is this guilt of having fun. And when you come to the warrior moms our group it's interesting. You would think you had walked into like a month club.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, a wine and dinner club, I mean, it's loud, it's silly, it's lots of laughing. And I remember being really shocked and so pleasantly pleased at seeing these. You know, these strong women is what I immediately thought of, that were engaging in joy. And so what advice through? You know, as you're working through clients with grief, would you say.
Speaker 3:I'll try to keep this concise because this is one of my soapboxes. I can get on.
Speaker 1:Yes, good.
Speaker 3:Part of why I wrote the book is to help people understand and illustrate the gains and losses that come with every life event, right? So whether your life event is desirable or undesirable, it is going to come with both gains and losses. So a couple examples that I use for this my best friend had a baby a couple of years ago. Primarily successful event, right, positive, desirable, all those things. However, she lost sleep, she lost her body, she lost she didn't lose her best friend, but we do not hang out near as much as we used to, and so there are losses with that. This is a primarily good event on the flip side, even with some of the darkest experiences that we have, and this is not something that I would tell to someone immediately after a loss in mind, but in time you see gains right, like what you just described is one of them. Now you have this community. You have built this and it's for terrible reasons and ones that you would, I'm sure, take back if you could. Right, there is community, there is a sense of belongingness and connection, and so the gains and losses is something that I would really encourage to answer your question and to help people better understand that most things in life.
Speaker 3:Again, I was very intentional to name my book starting with the word and, because most things in life are both and it is duality. And I think, as humans, when we are able to sit in that gray and understand the both and and, the duality that exists in most of these situations, I think we cope a lot more effectively. Yes, it's more messy, it's harder to categorize, it's harder to deal with, but that acceptance of like, yeah, this is a both, and I'm going to experience intense moments of sorrow, but if I didn't love really hard, I would never have that sorrow to begin with. And so it is a both and, and so I encourage people not to feel guilty for experiencing that joy, but just holding it with the same place that you hold your sadness to. It's both.
Speaker 2:And Michelle's quote her famous quote is living in the, and so I love that you said that you started it with an and because she's like living in the and she's like there's joy and sorrow, you know there's laughter and tears at our meetings, you know. So that whole that is huge that you said you started it with an and because you're right, there's and in everything.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well and when you know it's interesting. So you said you're working with um. You know all these athletes that have um, you know these strong goals and they have. You know what many people especially. You know pro athletes and Olympians that have these incredible things. You know that, both that their goals are and that they're achieving, and yet you know they. They have griefs, as you know, grief moments and things that they're carrying through.
Speaker 1:And that just made me, when you were introducing that I was just thinking about our surviving children. You know that we, we ourselves, as parents, are carrying this. You know this really heavy one as parents are carrying this. You know this really heavy one, and often I think I forget to, to allow, I think, my daughter like, okay, there's this grief that she's dealing with too, that is completely separate from this and yet, in and of itself, it's still something that she's working through. What would be a good reminder for us as as moms that are carrying this. And then also just how you validate, because I know we talk about, like when people come up and they're like, oh well, you know, I understand, because my dog died or something, and it just feels so insensitive, but yet there's a truth to that right Because they loved their dog or whatever the loss is. And just what would be some advice, whether it's with friends or surviving kids, just to remember. You know something specific about grief from your thoughts.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, yeah, what a good question.
Speaker 3:Again, this is a huge reason why I wrote the book, and you'll see this kind of towards the end of the book where I speak to the life and the death of my grandma, who was by far the closest person in the world to me, and it was incredible to get my family together and to kind of have this conversation about.
Speaker 3:Let's talk about how we've changed, let's talk about how we're grieving, let's talk about what you need, what I need, how. Sometimes those are very different things and so that we all know that, right, we all see how each person in our family is interacting, and so you pick up on things, but there isn't necessarily direct and meaningful conversations about that, and so that is something that I would encourage, right, someone being able to again be self-aware and to kind of say, okay, what I might need in this moment or how I might be coping could be different than so and so, and that is okay. But facilitating communication and kind of figuring out, you know, help me understand that. The one of the best examples I can give you is my grandpa. After my grandma died, he's probably been the most stoic and, in my opinion, just like seemingly unchanged, and it pissed me off.
Speaker 3:I was like yeah, what is it? I don't, I don't like how you're reacting and again even as someone who specializes in grief and loss. It is a psychologist I had to check myself. I'm making assumptions and I'm trying to you know what I need for myself, that's trying how I'm trying to make him grieve.
Speaker 3:And that's not okay, that's not my place, and so I think another piece to that is saying even if you don't understand or maybe you don't even agree, can you still allow that person to have their space and to to cope and to do whatever it is they're doing to again survive.
Speaker 2:sometimes it's not just to do the work, but sometimes it's just well, and that's a big point for husband and wives, to married couples, because men and women, oh yes, gosh yes, oh, communication is huge there because they do grieve differently yeah, yeah one.
Speaker 3:Sometimes we don't necessarily understand it and again for my I guess in my case and speaking with my grandma, it was unanimous Everyone was like, oh yeah, me, I had by far changed the most and that wasn't necessarily for the better to be able to talk about that and just to kind of acknowledge it and own it.
Speaker 3:I think that is doing the work you know, not that I need to apologize for it or anything in that way, it's just like, yeah, we got to acknowledge that this is where we're at, and what do I want to do with that? Right, right, once I have that awareness, I can figure out what's working, what's not working. You know Well, a lot of people I know and I'm speaking from experience here.
Speaker 2:I am the kettle and is you just want to ignore it? Like cause, like in our, in my family, it's in my extended family, like we just don't. We'll talk about, oh, the good times with Alec and all that kind of stuff, but I'm uncomfortable talking to my parents about it. I'm uncomfortable talking, you know, because I know they're uncomfortable. We're very Southern. We don't talk about those, you know the big deal things. So it's Constraints. Yes, yes, it's uncomfortable and let's just be happy and you know, and we are a close family and everybody loved Alec and it's just, but it is, I am the first one to shy away from it and just push it down. So we don't have to. Let's just not talk about it. Let's just talk about the good times, you know. So I get it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, that does come back to the both and right. That doesn't mean you need to live in the good times all the time, but you don't need to live in the bad ones either. But I think it's just kind of figuring out how to strike that balance for yourself so that you're not my gosh. I'll never forget this. I was talking about my grandma one time and speaking to my partner at the time, and it was so fascinating because the response was you know, you're almost doing a disservice, because I was just saying I don't, it's hard, I don't want to talk about her, I don't want to bring her up, and the message was like you're almost doing a disservice because you're not acknowledging how important she was to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That really hit me and it was like oh, wow, Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I guess I hadn't thought about it like that, and so I think it's just trying to strike that balance and again, that's, there's no pretty bow on that, because that balance can look different every single day.
Speaker 1:I was telling Amy, it just fits exactly what you're saying. One of my son's friends got married this weekend and had invited us to attend and a couple of years ago, same thing one of his friends had gotten married and I had said I was going and then last minute I said no, I just can't. It was just an emotional breakdown. But then I have just carried this like guilt and sadness that I didn't go and so I was determined, just I was going to do the hard thing and I was hard. I had lots of tears and cry, you know, crying throughout. But the stories that I got to hear from their friends about their friend group and about Carter and it, like you said, the gains and losses, um, and and it is the end, and it was so incredibly beautiful and I really, even though I mean I'm still super emotional about it, I've got to unpack a lot from this weekend, but it just there were so many beautiful things that there really were more gains than losses in that.
Speaker 3:Yes, Can I? Can I also say something about guilt?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Please. So this is also one of my very favorite concepts. So when I do work with trauma, I'm trained in a type of therapy called cognitive processing therapy and there is this difference in helping people understand what is appropriate guilt versus what is manufactured guilt Okay and so appropriate guilt versus what is manufactured guilt okay and so appropriate guilt is essentially okay. If I have a fight with my brother, let's say, and I walk up to him and I punch him in the face, okay, that is appropriate guilt, to feel right, I'm violating one of my own values. I don't I've never punched him in the face, just so you know, but if I were to, you're violating. You know you have done something wrong by your own standards, right?
Speaker 3:So that is appropriate, because you truly did violate a value and you got to figure out what to do with that. Manufactured guilt is something that I see so much in the work that I do, because it's you are creating right. You are manufacturing guilt, but you didn't actually do something wrong, so for example whether or not you go to that wedding.
Speaker 3:You're not, You're not. But it's that how you interpret it, it's your response, and so I just I love that idea and I often use it in my clinical work to help people understand okay, is this manufactured? Because if it's manufactured, we could play with it a little bit. How do we?
Speaker 1:reframe thoughts.
Speaker 3:How do we just challenge some of your beliefs around some of this in a way that's going to be helpful for you versus okay, well, if you punch your brother in the face, what are you going to do? I should probably apologize, not do it again.
Speaker 1:Well, it was so brilliant because I had the boy, the young man, that got married. He was at this wedding this weekend and so I said to him oh, I'm just, you know, I have felt so bad that I wasn't there. And of course he's like, oh my gosh, we completely understand. You know, it was just that affirmation of exactly what you're saying is, I had manufactured this.
Speaker 3:Yes, and again, I think, for your group. I could only imagine how much guilt plays a role right, and asking yourself regardless of the way your child died, what else could I have done? Or what about that? Just replaying all sorts of things that you know you can't even control at this point. But I think we often do that because trying to figure out how to blame ourselves or what sort of guilt to carry allows us to try to take more control over the situation, and it almost feels better to blame ourselves than it does to realize there are some things we truly just cannot control.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So yeah, I just something that could be particularly useful.
Speaker 1:I love that. Yeah, those appropriate and manufactured grief or guilt. Those are our girls for today, for sure, yes, thank you. Let's wrap up, but what would kind of just final thoughts about grief and maybe coming back to this title of us and she was never the same and just some final thoughts between honoring that and then also maybe some hope for those of us carrying this giant amount of grief but yet lots of other small griefs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean again, I think one of the biggest take-homes is just how complex this all is and there's so many layers and there's so many competing needs and just when maybe you feel like you have a handle on it, everything can be rocked and it's like you're starting all over.
Speaker 3:But I cannot normalize enough that that is natural and right, you are not crazy. That really is part of the experience, and I think I have found in my experience that if you are able to lean in right, you've already done hard. The fact that you are continuing to get up each and every day you are doing hard things already and kind of looking at it from that angle and being able to kind of talk yourself through, I can and I am doing hard things I think that can be monumental in allowing yourself to kind of lean in and sit with the discomfort in a way that, like I said, is going to help you integrate your loss into your life. We're not trying to separate or just have you get over it, because that's not possible. Rather, we just want it to be integrated.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. This has just been. I mean gosh, I don't know about you, amy.
Speaker 2:I love it. Thank you, oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1:Certainly for our listeners, that's for sure. We thank you so much. Yes, thank you so much. And just a little plug for your book when can they get your book?
Speaker 3:Yeah, where can? They get the book? Yeah, so it, um, it's called, and she was never the same again. It is currently on Amazon, um, and then it's also on ACX. So Amazon, um, audible and iTunes. There is an audio book out now that came out just like a month or so ago.
Speaker 3:Um and then my website is well, the book's website is and she was never the same againcom. And then my website is well, the book's website is andshewasneverthesameagaincom. And then my practice website is npttherapycom, and there's also a little map there so people can check out if I'm able to work with you in your state. I'm licensed in like 40 states.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, incredible, yeah, wonderful, and the cover for the book is just gorgeous, my gosh.
Speaker 3:Yes, oh my gosh, thank you. Yeah, I have to tell you that story. So my cousin is actually the artist, oh neat. So he read the book and he came over and he had three separate ideas, right. One was a bunch of interconnected ropes. That was one idea. One was something with Dove. In some cultures dove symbolizes life and some symbolizes death, and I cannot, for the life of me, remember what the third one was, but there were three. And we were talking and he had some questions from the book that he just asked me. So he pulled out his iPad and he just started sketching, was asking me these questions, and so, as I was answering, he just he kind of sketched out the dove and there are some other things over here, and by the end of it he was like we're going to combine this and that's how it's going to happen, and it was just so cool and so organic and we saw it. We were both like this is it?
Speaker 2:How long did it take you to write the book? Is it something you've done over years?
Speaker 3:or no. No, so it took 11 months, as we were kind of saying earlier, before we got on the call. When I, when I do something, I did a chapter a month was my goal. Um, because I had to, you know, do the interviews and just kind of go through the different stages.
Speaker 3:So it was about a chapter a month, except for the last two, which was very telling to me that that was still where most of my grief was was lying Cause. The last two chapters are about my grandma cried and those were the two that I just I couldn't even take breaks. I was like I just got to get, get it done.
Speaker 2:This is an emotional book for you, I mean I can. Is an emotional book for you, I mean I can.
Speaker 3:you're having to dig and you're having to identify within you. Yeah, yeah, oh. And my family too, right? And I just I can't give my family enough credit for being willing. You know, the tagline or the subtitle of the book is a multi-generational memoir. It's not just my stories, right? Some of the chapters don't even include me.
Speaker 2:Oh no.
Speaker 3:But still, the fact that they include people who are so pivotal to me means that they have impacted and influenced me. And that kind of goes back to what you were saying about surviving children, and what does that look like, because you're still going to carry that grief, and how does that impact?
Speaker 2:well, and you're even you're. You're what great, great grandfather or your great or your grandfather lost a brother. My grandfather lost a brother, yeah, I mean, and so that I mean that affected generational for sure.
Speaker 3:Yes, oh, completely changed the course of my dad's life, who wasn't even alive at the time. Yeah, so so, yeah, I just, I just think those connections are fascinating and so important and need to be explored a little bit, because it does help us understand why we are the way that we are, and so, in some ways, that's another way of doing the work, like we were talking about earlier.
Speaker 2:And he said it at the very I think we were off screen, but it was said. He said make the untalkable more talkable. Yeah, and that's why we're all here, I think.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I can't thank you guys enough for having me on. Oh my god yes, well what this was a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. Yes, yes, nice to meet you and hopefully thank you so much with you again.
Speaker 3:All right, bye guys. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Anytime, anytime great, we would love it. We will be in touch.
Speaker 3:Sounds good, take care Thanks, bye.